Dennis Lehane: Confessions of a Novelist Turned TV Showrunner

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I'm John Burnham Schwartz, Literary Director of the Sun Valley Writers' Conference, and this is Beyond the Page. In this episode, recorded live at the 2024 Writers' Conference, I sit down with best-selling crime novelist and TV writer-producer Dennis Lehane for a lively, wide-ranging conversation about how he approaches writing books versus television scripts, his advice for writing true crime stories, as well as his journey developing his two latest Apple TV limited series, Blackbird and the upcoming Firebug, both starring Taron Edgerton.

Lehane's that rare novelist who has found acclaim in a large audience, both in fiction and on the screen. A handful of his novels have been made into excellent films, Mystic River, Gone Baby Gone, and Shutter Island, to name a few. And in recent years, he's become a much-in-demand television creator and showrunner, a role that first began for him two decades ago when he joined the now-famous Season 4 Writers' Room on David Simon's iconic show, The Wire.

The Wire didn't become The Wire until it was winding down in its fifth season. And what had happened was, this was still in the age of DVDs, the DVDs had been released in Europe. It metastasized across Europe. It became this big cultural phenomenon in Europe, and then it crossed back over the ocean and everybody was like, why aren't you watching The Wire? So this happened as we were wrapping up. We were done. Up until that point, we were the lowest-rated TV show on HBO, which meant we were the lowest-rated TV show on TV, and nobody watched us. And we hemorrhaged 100,000 viewers a year. So if there's a Mendoza line in baseball, we were below the Mendoza line in TV, which is a million, at least a million. We were well below that by the time we did Season 4, which as you said, is the best season, and it is, and I'm very honored to be part of it, and I can take some pride in it because I was just a cog in the wheel.

Season 4 came because they said, Dread Pirate Roberts in Princess Bride, most likely kill you in the morning, Wesley. That was life on The Wire, we'll most likely kill you in the morning, but good job, we'll probably be canceled tomorrow. So they told us that Season 4 would be our last season, barring some miracle, right? So I'll never forget, David came into the room and he said, we've got the perfect idea for Season 4. He looked at us and he goes, middle school. It was like the biggest fuck you to a network that I can think of in history. I mean, middle school, the two least sexy words in the English language, middle school. And we were like, we're in, and we did it. And what that created though was because nobody was looking at us, nobody was bothering us because we were so low paid, there just wasn't anything they could hold over our heads. We'd be like, hey, could we be shown in HGTV? And they'd be like, do you want to show up next year? And we're like, yeah. Then no HGTV. We're like, okay. Anything we wanted, no. It was just, here's your set budget, here's your deal, deal with it, which for a writer is heaven. I mean, it's heaven.

We just got to write what we wanted to write. When we came off the wire, we found we were kind of like a graduating class from the top five who had graduated from Harvard Business School, entering into the world. We were like, people want us to work for them. But by that point, we had a rep. And the rep was, these guys don't even know what writing to the break means. That's a very famous thing in TV. And somebody had to teach it to me around the time I was on my third TV show. Like I was like, what's writing to the break? Writing to the break means you write to the commercial. So every 12 and a half minutes, you have to have something happen. And we were like, oh no. Oh no. Oh no, no. Especially at middle school. So we got out of there and our rep was, you got to leave these guys alone. That was our rep. And it was great. It was wonderful. I was like, really? This is so cool. So it's extended throughout my career that I've been mostly left alone as a writer of television.

You were working for David Simon, Ed Burns. I mean, if you think back to what you learned at the level of application, craft, and just sort of savvy from Simon and Burns, and that room generally. Film is visual. It's a visual medium. It's as simple as that. The biggest crutch a novelist and a prose writer has is the interior monologue. Interior monologue is crucial to writing prose. You can't use it in television. You just can't. Or film. You have to just show what happens. So it's very recitalian. It's literally just what does the person do? What do they say? That's your story. And the way I look at it is this. People will say, what's harder, writing for a novel or writing for a screenplay? And I'll laugh. They're not even comparable. Writing a script is like writing a map, like you used to write maps for people before you had like, you know, go down here and take a left and then you draw a little picture of a house. And you know what we used to do before there was nav? That's the equivalent of writing a script. You're writing that for 400 people. I have 400 people on my current TV show. So that's the number. You're writing it so that all the different people in all the different departments know what they're expected to do. This is what people are wearing. This is what people look like. This is where the location is. This is what happens. This is what people say. And this is what people do. That's it.

Writing a book is writing a symphony. It truly is. Every single instrument, you control all the notes, you're the conductor, you're God. And it's cool to be God sometimes. It's nice. There's a pride of ownership when you see your book on a shelf that you don't get from seeing a script. But it's so much harder and it's grown exponentially harder for me every single year.

That leads me to a question about collaboration. I know the first writer's room I was in, I mean, it was very exciting. It's a lot of talent in one room. The whole notion of that kind of collaboration blew my mind. You know, we're novelists. We're not used to being with that many people and the idea that everything you're doing is interlocked with what everybody else is doing. How did that come to you and did you immediately take to that process or was it a process of time?

I've got a, and this is true of everybody in the wire room in general, we always looked at this. We all had galactic egos of the work and infinitesimal egos of the self. And I think that's a very crucial thing to have as a writer. So when I walked into that room, I was like, okay, yeah, I've written six novels by that point. I came in on the wire right after Shutter Island, seven novels, sorry, seven novels. So I know a lot about novel writing, but I don't know anything about writing for television. I don't. And so I came into that room as a student, right from the beginning. I went right back. I was like, okay, here we go. Hour one of your 10,000 hours to learn how to write for television.

And David and Ed used to be like, dude, you're kind of, you know what you're doing. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm really doing. I really don't. So I just took it as I'm a student. I'm learning. I'm learning. I'm learning. My first episode of The Wire, I would say I got 40% on screen, right? And they kept telling me that's a great number, guys. That's a great number. I was like, really? Okay. My second was about 85% and my third was 95%. So I learned and I kept building and I kept building. Then I did Boardwalk. Then I was a consultant on a bunch of shows and they realized that I was really good at figuring out what wasn't working structurally in a show. I could look at a nine episode arc and kind of figure out, okay, that's going to be your problem there in episode five or whatever.

And then I met David Kelley and David Kelley brought me in on a show called Mr. Mercedes, a Stephen King adaptation. Little did I know that that would be the next four years of my life adapting Stephen King novels, which is a dark place to be people, very dark place to be. And when they brought me Blackbird, I was like, no way. I said, I just got off three Stephen Kings, you know, like. So David Kelley brought me in on Mr. Mercedes. He was being pulled as we started the writer's room into Big Little Lies. And he said after about a week, he just essentially threw me the car keys. He was just like, take the show. And that's how I became a showrunner.

And I was rewriting, rewriting, rewriting constantly to production. This happened on Bloodline all the time. I did a TV show called Bloodline. It was set in the keys. There's a lot of boats there. There's a lot of docks. There was a lot of water. We get calls from production. Two days before they were shooting, and they'd say, yeah, man, we can't shoot anything on a boat. We'd be like, but the characters are fishermen. And they'd be like, I know, but we can't do a boat, man. And we can't do night. We just can't. When we're on a night, we just, it's not possible. And one of my friends said, who was one of the writers on that show said, sooner or later, everything becomes interior kitchen day.

So writing to production means that you just have to do that. There's no argument. They don't have the money. They don't have the light. They don't have the time. Whatever's wrong, they don't have it. So you got to change that scene, and you got to do it within 24 to 48 hours. You know what that removes? All preciousness. All preciousness gets blown to hell. You can't be a precious television writer. You can't. You just have to write for the good of the whole. And I love that. It is so different from novels where you can, I mean, you can, there's no budget. You can go anywhere you want.

And so going to Blackbird, and that's the first one that you officially from the beginning show ran. I ran every single piece of it. And for those of you who haven't seen it yet, it's on Apple, basically it tells the story of a charismatic criminal in Boston, Chicago, sorry, Jimmy Keene, who's told he can get his 10 year sentence erased if he gets another inmate to admit to a string of murders of young women. Well, they gave, they brought it to me and I said, no way. I said, I do not want to go. I hate prisons. I'm sick of darkness. I just want to write like Bambi, you know, after the mother dies, like I don't even want the mom dying. Like, I just, I want to write Princess. I want to write something sweet and light. I don't want to do another trip into darkness.

And the person who brought it to me was an old friend at HBO and he said, come on, please, just at least read it. Just do me that one favor. And I said, all right, fine. So I listened to it. I was driving to a writer's, another writer's conference, I was driving to a writer's conference. And it's an all, it's a nonfiction book. It's a true story of a guy named Jimmy Keene, who was a white collar drug dealer in Chicago.

He was a policeman's son and he got caught and they dropped him for 10 years into a minimum security prison without possibility of parole. His father was sick and they came to him and they said, if you want to see your father again, which he very much did, it was his best friend. They said to get out of prison, you'll have to agree to transfer to the worst prison in America, which is in Springfield, Missouri, and buddy up to a guy we think has killed upwards of 18 women. And we need you to A, get him to confess to two murders and B, where the bodies are buried. If you do that, we commute your entire sentence. If you fail, you're stuck there doing your time. And that was the deal. And Jimmy took that deal. And it's an amazing story. And it's a true story. I vetted it like crazy because I had a lot of times where I was like, there's no way this is true. But anyway, I was listening to the story and I came to this one moment where I was driving across the desert and I went, huh, okay, I'll do it if.

And I called back to the people at HBO at the time and I said, I will do this if I can make this entire show about the male gaze. If I can do this about toxic masculinity, if I can do this about a man going on a journey in which he realizes that everybody objectifies, men objectify, women objectify. But men seem to be the only ones who weaponize it. And I said, where are you on the spectrum of misogyny? Where is every man on the spectrum? Because the most benign, you check out a woman as she walks past. The most horrible, serial killer. Where are you on that line? And I said, that's going to be my main character's journey. That's going to be interesting to me. That's not the real journey that the real Jimmy Keen went on because he was baffled when he saw the final product. He was like, yeah, man, I didn't have any of those doubts. I was like, yeah, well, you're Jimmy Keen. But that was the story I wanted to tell. So once they said, you can tell that story, I was off to the races and I had a very small writer's room on that. I only had a couple of people and then we did great with that.

So then they brought me another project that I didn't want to do. I'm now with Apple TV exclusively and then they brought me this new product and the new project is, it was a jumping off point because it was proposed to me and I said, I have no interest in that. And they said the same thing. They must be used to this by now. They were like, well, just give it a listen and give it a thought. So it was a podcast and it's called Firebug and the podcast is totally the jumping off point. The podcast is based on this true story. In Glendale, California in the 1980s, there was a series of arsons committed by the most prolific arsonist in history. The arson investigator turned out to be the arsonist. And on top of that, he was writing a book and shopping and around New York, a fiction book about an arson investigator chasing an arsonist in Glendale, California, in which several of the arsons were modeled on the actual arson. As they say, you can't make this shit up, you can't make this shit up.

So once I saw that and I just said, all right, look, that's a baseline. The rest of the story doesn't interest me at all. I don't care about John Ward. That's the real guy's name. I don't care about how it all went down, but I love that jumping off point. I've now found my wheelhouse. My wheelhouse is toxic masculinity and white male anxiety syndrome, right? So I started to think and think and it occurred to me, if you look back on your life, particularly if you're older, and you look back on some of the most important decisions you ever made, if you're truly honest with yourself, what you really think is, what the fuck was I thinking? Like, really, what was I thinking? Like, what, like, why would I do that, right?

And so what that told me is one of the things that we sell, a drug that we sell that is a lie, is that people know why they do what they do because you have to do that in fiction, right? People have to know their motives. You have to understand their motives. And I'm like, nobody knows why they do anything, right? Or if you do, you figure it out 10 years later and you go, oh, subconscious, that's probably why I did it.

So I decided to make a TV show about people who are all attracted to the thing that can kill them, whether that be a fire, whether that be a bad relationship, whether that be any type of self-destructive behavior. And I put them all into this cauldron and then I just stirred it all up. And at the center of it is an arson investigator who turns out to be an arsonist who's writing a book about an arson investigator who turns out to be an arsonist. But everything that revolves around that is more craziness.

And once I started to have fun with it and I had a great writer's room and we all started to have a blast with it, we created this absolutely insane TV show that I guarantee you this, if you watch the first couple of episodes, I am 100% promising you, you will have no idea what the ninth episode looks like. I'm taking you on a ride of rides, but we think it's going to be called Smoke and we think it'll be out in May of 2025. Great. Maybe June.

So that based on a nonfiction podcast, Blackbird was also nonfiction. Yep. Were those your first encounters with wrestling story from somebody else's nonfiction? How did that go? What was it? I didn't like it. I didn't like it. Why not? Because the real people tend to get very annoyed and to try to explain creative license to real people or they want to be involved. And you're like, no, sorry, no, I want to tell a story.

So when I first did Mr. Mercedes, the first time I was dealing with somebody who I know and respect, I was thinking coming over in the golf cart here, I almost killed Stephen King in a golf cart at my own writer's conference. I was driving him across a very dark lawn at a college and we hit a pothole and we went up on two wheels. And my thought in that moment was I'm going to be known as the man who killed Stephen King.

But anyway, so Stephen's a friend of mine. And when I took Mr. Mercedes, when I took the job, I reached out to him and I said, I just want to be clear. I will show you all the respect in the world. I am a novelist. I know what it is. I'm going to give you all the respect that you deserve and you deserve a lot. And I can't be literal. And he was like, of course not. I wrote back, he was like, of course not. And that was it. I could now go off the reservation and I could write the story within that story that I wanted to write.

You try that with a real person. They're like, what? No, that's not the way it went down. And that's not the way it happened. And that's not what, you know, and you're like, oh, who gives a shit, man? Do you know anything about drama? Luckily, I do.

What was that? There's a moment, the end of Braveheart, I've heard you referred to in terms of what the line should be for what to keep true. Okay, the end of Braveheart, spoiler alert, it's 20 years old, so too bad. The end of Braveheart, William Wallace and Edward Longshanks die at the exact same moment, right? He's yelling freedom. Edward Longshanks dies. William Wallace dies. In reality, I think they were a year and a half apart, those deaths. Who cares? Works great in a movie. Do the movie. Like, just let it be.

If there was as much bloodshed at Elsinore as there was in Hamlet, they would have shut that castle down by the third act, you know? So we've become too literal. And I want fiction, I want drama to be fun and true to itself. I mean, Inspired by a True Story has become just a diving board, basically. It was an American hustle that began, some of this shit actually happened. Remember that? Oh, yeah, yeah, that's right, yeah, that's right.

So we haven't really talked about movies. You've written one or two movies, I think, maybe you directed one in the 90s, and then you've done a lot of television. And I've heard you quoted as saying, you're a TV guy, like, and maybe even to the extent of no more books, but no more movies. So I'm trying to understand, because they're so different, I think it'd be nice to get into what's different about them from the writer's point of view, and also what the forms offer each to the writer, and what their limitations are, as you see it.

So my dream, and where I started off as a writer, was to be a short story writer. I'm a child of the 80s, I adored Raymond Carver, I adored Alice Munro, I adored Andre Debusse, I adored Chekhov, that's what I wanted to be. So I tried to be a short story writer for the first five years of my apprentice as a writer. And one summer, I was home, and I was too poor to go out, and I decided to write a book. Now, all those short stories I wrote, some of them would take me as long as 18 months. Short stories were murder for me, I just thought all writing was murder. So I decided to write a novel, it took me three weeks. And I was like, well, that's interesting. So then I went back to writing short stories again. And then my agent, who had that novel, said, I would really like you to consider writing a second novel. So I wrote a second novel. Now, that did not take three weeks, but it came out pretty smooth, took about a year and a half, but it came out smooth. I realized I was a novelist who thought he was a short story writer, that's all, that's what it was. And even to this day, when people ask me to write short stories, I go, I don't know, because they are so painful for me to write, they can take forever, they drive me insane. It's a really difficult form, and I'm in awe of the people who can do it well.

I think television is a novel, TV is a novel. If you watch Presumed Innocent right now on Apple TV, that's playing out like a perfect novel because it's based on a novel. Movies are a short story, and I find them very difficult to write. I find scripts hard to write for film. Not always, but, you know. So I told my wife, who's here, I said to her, after the last time I did a film script, and I hated it, and I hated every minute of it, and I was miserable, and I was like banging my head against the wall trying to write it, and I said, don't ever let me write another script. You have to swear to me I'll never take another movie job. And then the biggest franchise in the world came to me and asked me to write one, so I was like, accept this, accept this, I got to do this. Which I did, but even that, I felt, it was not intuitive to me. It was, movies, you got to be too perfectly down the line, where a TV show can be sprawling and weird and wonderful and go off in different directions and come back, and I think that's just more me.

How much of that is about control as well? Because when you write a movie, unless you're the director, it's still kind of a director's medium. Oh, completely. You're just tossing the script. So, television, I mean, you're running your own shows. You're the one who's in charge, obviously there are outside pressures and budgets and whatnot, but the ability to decide the final aspect of the story and its iteration and how it comes out. You know, as Mel Brooks says, it's good to be the king.

How has that informed your writing, now that you're running this entire operation? Well, it's informed my writing because I know I can do whatever I want. I mean, let's say an actor wants to be difficult, it doesn't happen to me much, I've been blessed, I have the most amazing actors, and they're so selfless, the group I have now. But let's say the actor says, I don't want to say that line, or I want to say this line, this line's a better line. I'll be like, all right, can you do one for me? Sure. They give me one. Okay. I don't care what you do after that, because I control the editing booth.

You know, go nuts, do 20 takes, sounds good. This sounds more like an IQ test, actually. Yeah. I mean, you know, ultimately, that's what it is. That happens with directors, it happens with almost every aspect of the show. And so, I'm a very benevolent leader, and I believe in support, support, support, make people feel really good about what they do, give them a ton of freedom. I don't really want to obsess over micro details. That was my biggest fear when I became a showrunner, I'm like, I'm not like David Fincher, I don't, you know, this great story, Blade Runner, which is probably my favorite movie, Ridley Scott came in, it was his third movie as a director, he came walking into this huge production on the first day of filming, and he saw the floor, and he said, that's not the black I wanted. That's not the black I wanted. And so, they stopped production immediately, and they repainted a black floor, so that they get a particular reflective quality to the floor.

Now, if you watch Blade Runner, and you see that scene where he walks into Tyrell headquarters for the first time, that floor is magnificent. Believe me, it's magnificent. I would have walked on the set and been like, yeah, cool black floor, all right, let's go, shoot. Like, I don't have that micromanager in me. So I bring in people who I like their work, whether they're costume designers, production managers, production designers, art department, costume, all of that, I bring them in, I tell them my general essential vision, and then I just say, go at it, have fun, and if something bumps against me, I'll let you know, and I'll say, no, I don't, you know, and we've had a couple of moments where I'll be like, why is she always in print shirts? Oh, we thought you liked print shirts, I'm like, no, right, and at one point I was like, why is our star's name is Journey, I said, why, why isn't Journey, I mentioned leather jackets a couple times, why have I never seen Journey in a leather jacket, and they said, because the director didn't like them. I said, is that director here anymore? No, put her in a leather jacket, you know, like, done, like, moving on.

So it's a wonderful, truly creative and collaborative process, and if you get the right people involved, and I have them right now, it's a joy, Blackbird was the opposite, Blackbird was, my God, Blackbird would have driven most people out of the industry, it was so insane, but we held together, and those of us who held together through Blackbird are now an extremely tight unit, and that includes Taron, my leading man, he's been my leading man now for two things, Taron Egerton, he's the star of Rocketman and Blackbird, and now my new show, Taron, like anybody who's, you know, a star, says, you know, you do one for them and one for me, and I always say to Taron, the one for me is with me, and then you go off and you do your big budget Hollywood movies and do whatever, and then come back and do the fun stuff with me, and that's what we do.

I wanted to ask you one question about structure and as it applies to the different mediums in a way, David Mamet has this line that's well known, I think, among writers, he says, the problems of the second act are the problems of the first act. Now, he's talking about film, I believe, when he says that. He's talking about plays, too. Plays, okay, so I'm wondering how you would apply that, because first of all, maybe a little explication for the audience about the resonance of that line, like what he means, and secondly, how that would apply to television and the idea even of acts in a television show or a limited series. So here's the thing, if you write a book, there's this process that happens when you first write a book, and it happens to almost everybody when they first write a book. You're so excited, and you're happy, and you have this great idea, and you're going along, and fuck, writing is just so pleasurable. How did you not know it was this pleasurable?

This is fantastic, and you're telling everybody, and then you grind to an incredible halt, and you want to weep every day when you wake up, and you look at what you got, and it doesn't make any sense, and this whole thing has fallen apart, and you don't know why, and most people at that point stop writing. It's just what happens. The people who continue on, they cut two paths. They're either delusional, and they just say, okay, we're great, we're moving on, and then they write an unpublishable book, or they figure out what the problem is, they fix it, and then they move on. That is the problem of the second act.

The problem of the second act is all that glory of infatuation that you had in the first act, you made probably a critical mistake in execution that you will not figure out until you get into the second act, and suddenly, you realize your book won't work, but you don't know why, and the reason is it's somewhere in the first act you made a mistake. You made a critical mistake in execution, so you go back, and you look, and you find it, and you identify it, and then you fix it, but it's very rare that a book is written smoothly, so yeah, you will have all these great ideas, and you'll be like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a great idea. I can't believe nobody ever thought of it before, and then you realize, no, they did think of it, they just played it out, and it doesn't work. That's what happens.

So when, I'll give you a perfect example, when we were doing The Wire, Dominic West showed up, and he was in a movie with Julianna Moore. I can't remember the name of it anymore, but it was all about Julianna Moore came home one day, and her husband didn't recognize her, and her kids weren't in any pictures, and she didn't exist, right? And then she enlisted Dominic West to help her figure out why this happened, right? That's the movie. And I saw Dominic West, and I just seen him come into action, and I said to Dominic West, I said, is the movie good? Because that seems like a too-good-to-be-true setup. It's so awesome, I can't see how it would pay off. And he was like, mate, it's great. Never believe an actor. I went and I saw the movie, and it was terrible, and the answer was aliens. Aliens messing with us, right? Aliens. So of course, aliens.

So it started off with a great idea, and then they had to explain it, and explaining becomes the problem. Anybody can have a great idea. To have you play it out and make it work out, that separates the women from the girls and the men from the boys. That's when it gets really hard. And so that's the second act issue. And a million times on our show, we'll be like, oh my God, that's a writer's room. A writer's room is somebody saying, oh, wait, you know what would be cool? Let's do this, and this, and this. And everybody goes, yeah. And then one guy goes, well, wait a second.

And that's death, right? That's the person who's going to go, but if that happened and that happened, then that couldn't happen over here, and then that would collapse here, and nobody would believe that anyway. And then you go, yeah, second act. So that's a writer's room, more than anything, is a bunch of people saying, I got a great idea, or I got a cool idea, or this might work, and everybody trying to play it out. And if it plays out, then suddenly you go, that's good. Let's try that. And if it doesn't play out, you know. And here's the other final difference. Because of my training, I've never not outlined a television show. I cannot write without an outline. I cannot write without carding my show, putting it up on a board and carding it. I can't write anything. It's actual index cards on a whiteboard, yeah, basically.

I cannot write a line of a book if I know what's going to happen. And that's why I have a really hard time writing books. Fundamental difference. Yeah, it's fundamental. I know three things, usually, that will happen in a book.

One thing at the beginning, one thing in the middle, one thing near the end. But I don't know anything else. And it's just like jumping out of a plane and then realizing, oh, I should probably get my shoot on. You're just kind of figuring it out.

I do scripts completely opposite. I always think of novels as a few tunnels, you know, but no roads in between. And you just can't make a show that way. You can't, you just can't.

Thanks for listening to Beyond the Page. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others, post about it on social media, or leave a rating or review. A good one, we hope. To catch all the latest from the Sun Valley Writers Conference, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

And if you'd like to listen to this conversation in its entirety, or to any of our other talks, you can find them at svwc.com. I'm John Burnham Schwartz. Until next time.